Talk:Questions for DDOGamer

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Geoff Hanna (Of DDOCast and a frequent MyDDO blogger before its demise) asked me if I'd 1) answer a few questions for an upcoming post on DDOGamer (his current blog site), and 2) if I'd pass the word on to others. So I figured the easiest way would be to repost the questions and make a PPOI to the various sysops, and link him to the page.

LrdSlvrhnd (Contributions • Message) 17:44, April 6, 2013 (EDT)

Part 1: Life as a DDO Wiki Sysop (this section is for you specifically) (Note: I'm not sure if he meant this for me specifically, or from the point of view of the specific SysOps who answered this, but until he tells me otherwise, I suspect the latter - no point in doing this only only getting the POV from one guy!)

How did you get involved with the wiki?
What is your opinion regarding why do some people (like me) mainly read and use the wiki while other people (like you) feel led to contribute and change it?
Have you participated in editing other wikis or other similar activities? If yes, how were the editing experiences different from editing DDOWiki?
What motivated you to do so much work in this specific wiki?
What rules or styles do you try to follow when adding to the wiki?

Part 2: General Info and History (this section is for whoever knows the answers)

Who founded the wiki? Borror0?

I founded the wiki along with Elliott. Our original vision was to create a network of gaming wikis called Enterwiki. This was all happening around the time that Wikia was starting up though. In the end, we abandoned the idea because it became apparent that it was going to be too difficult to compete with Wikia. I now regret not giving Enterwiki more of a chance. DDOwiki was the only wiki that survived from the Enterwiki experiment. --Xevo (Contributions • Message) 11:50, April 7, 2013 (EDT)

Was there one person who sort of drove things and provided a vision? Or did a bunch of people form up right away to provide crowd-sourced editorial control? Or something else?

While there were certain individuals who drove the wiki forward in the early days, I would say that it was more of a crowd-sourced phenomenon. I am still amazed by how DDOwiki has evolved over the years. --Xevo (Contributions • Message) 11:50, April 7, 2013 (EDT)

Who hosts the wiki? Doesn't that cost money?

I host the wiki. The ads pay for the hosting.--Xevo (Contributions • Message) 11:50, April 7, 2013 (EDT)

There are ads on the site. How does that work? Where does that money go?

Is the site backed up and "safe"?

Absolutely. The wiki is fully backed up daily.--Xevo (Contributions • Message) 11:50, April 7, 2013 (EDT)

Is there a general style guideline for wiki submissions?
It seems like the look and feel of the wiki underwent a big change a couple of years ago. Did it or am I just imagining things? If yes, why?
How do you as a group resolve differences? You can't all have the same philosophy about wiki work but also cannot spend eternity editing each other to comply with several competing individual philosophies. How does that work?

Part 3: Questions for everyone. Please ask as many of the other sysops to answer these as possible:

What is your favorite piece of work you've done for the wiki, and why is it your favorite?
How much time do you spend in the wiki versus time in the game?
Would you consider appearing on DDOCast to talk about the wiki?

1.1 - I first started editing the wiki back in October '09 (about a month after joining, I believe), doing minor edits for grammar & spelling (which is still the bulk of my editing today, actually). I was trying to figure out my own style, so I was rerolling my first couple of characters a *lot* - which meant running through the same low-level quests a *lot*. And I'd noticed that some of them needed fleshing out. And since I'd been running them so much, I figured I could do a decent job with that. And it kind of snowballed from there... I did (and do) a lot of running solo, which meant that I could cheerfully take an hour running through a five-minute quest and working on the wiki page.

1.2 - I think it's easier for somebody who primarily runs solo or with an understanding group (...the latter of which would be impossible while PUGging) to do major edits to a quest page. Beyond that, for minor edits... honestly, some pages, if you go to edit them, it can be overwhelming. There's a lot of use of templates, and people are probably afraid of doing it wrong or breaking something. But the thing is, admins can clean those up fairly easily. Like, if an item's base value was missing, and somebody added it - the "Value" line will most likely already be on the page. Or with U17, if an item has been updated to include an augment slot (Muck's Doom, for instance; haven't seen any or heard of anyone who's looted one since, so no idea if that got updated)... even if somebody doesn't know how to use the augment template, they could simply add, say, "Colorless Augment Slot" to the page, and one of us is bound to see it and fix it for the proper template.

Also, it's simply easier for some of us without lives to be able to find the time to do it - I'm sure there's a lot of "I don't want to spend my limited DDO time editing wiki pages; I want to spend it playing."

1.3 - Only a limited amount - the original Wiki, Star Trek's Memory Alpha, Star Trek's Wookieepedia, a few others. But almost entirely limited to grammar & spelling. Some of them (the Grimm wiki comes to mind) are more WYSIWYG - you can highlight a word or phrase and click on the "Bold" tag in the editing window, much like a Word document, rather than using a select number of quote marks, for instance - which is rather nice. However, I'm not sure how well that would work here, or how much of an overhaul it would require.

1.4 - I spend a fair amount of time (too much, really, not that knowing that stops me from signing on anyway!) playing DDO, so it's only reasonable that I then spend a fair amount of time editing the wiki. The wiki's helped me out so much over the years, that I like to pay it forward by making it better/more useful for future readers.

1.5 - I mainly follow basic grammatical & spelling rules... not entirely sure what you mean by this. I try to keep things fairly simple and explained well, and I like to interject the occasional note of humor.

2.X - Gonna mostly leave this section for others. There isn't really a general guideline for submissions, but it's not unusual for things to later be cleaned up by someone to bring it more in line with their own preferences (for instance, I like quest pages to have bullet points, and the info presented that way, rather than as a direct walkthrough, and am prone to rewriting like that, or to move the location of certain items. Rare spawn locations grouped together at the end rather than interspersed throughout; useful buffs at the top; etc.). If there looks to be a conflict, we'll discuss it, bring others into it, and basically vote on how to do something. Of course, quite often the vote is "I want to do it like this." "Well, I want to do it like *this*." "...yeah, i don't really care, just let me know how to do it..." which is probably less than helpful...

3.1 - I still crack up when I visit the "Assault on Splinterskull" quest pages and see my increasingly-annoyed snarkiness about going into the Outer Fortress *again*. Don't know that that's my favorite, but it's one that springs to mind most easily. Most of my edits are really either cleaning up or fleshing out so kinda meh.

3.2 - It varies; I'll generally have it open as I quest, but there will be times when I won't do anything with the wiki for a while. And then there'll be times when I'll realize I spent most of the night sitting in front of the banker because I was doing stuff on DDO Wiki instead.

3.3 - What, you mean like with a webcam and stuff? Yeah, no. *g*

LrdSlvrhnd (Contributions • Message) 17:44, April 6, 2013 (EDT)

I believe that the first part is specifically for you, since you are the sysop they contacted. But on the spirit of the thread, and to help people knowing each other, I'll fill in too.

1.1: I always used the wiki as a resource since I started playing. Then, I noticed that a lot of items (at the time) had stats, but no pictures. Next thing, I started to screenshot everything I got, and putting it on the wiki. I'm not great at research, testing, coding or even plain grammar (because english isn't my first language). But I found my place doing pic hunting and text dumping.

1.2: Mostly, I believe is a matter of priorities. Some people just don't have the time to edit a wiki. Others don't have the knowledge, and don't believe that learning it may be important in the future. A third group might think that time spent editing the wiki is less time farming stuff. Myself, I like that the wiki exists to help everyone, and try to keep it correct and presentable for everyone.

1.3: Tried with the wikipedia when it release their portuguese version. Since I'm not a researcher, and they have very high standards for presentation and editing, I gave up. Wikipedia is too strict. DDOwiki is more like a fan job, so as long as we keep with the basic organization stuff (using templates and correct information), we have the space to be more informal.

1.4: The feeling to help people. Cliche, I know, but is the truth. I love when someone on game/forums mention something I put on the wiki. I love when I see a new weapon out and be the first one to create a page and put info there so everyone can search for it.

1.5: Right now, my pet project is collecting the quests loading screens, and updating the bestiary. So, my main moto is: Don't add incorrect info. Eg, we all know that every mephit in game is true neutral, right? Wrong. Soulbound Mephits are Neutral Evil. We can't add stuff because it is logical. We need to test it out and confirm it. That's why I carry an unholy weapon around. Only after I hit a mob with it and a holy weapon I can assure the mob is neutral. There are more examples, but I think this one is good enough.

2.X: No idea.

3.1: No favorites. I have some pet projects, but they usually involve an entire category (traps, bestiary, optional hunting...), and not a single page. So, I have no personal page that I can point and say "hey, this one is mine and is awesome".

3.2: More than I want to admit. Usually, I play and start taking screenshots of everything I think is relevant. Then on the weekends I check the screenshots and add the relevant info on the wiki. Usually this means that every saturday I spend 4-6 hours editing the wiki. And usually part of sunday too, if I play a lot on the weekend.

3.3: No. My english skills are good for most of the time, but this only applies to written text. Talking is another matter, and I don't trust that my skills are good for a guest appearance on the DDOCast.

Nibelung (Contributions • Message) 19:00, April 6, 2013 (EDT)

Answers from ShoeMaker[edit]

Part 1: Life as a DDO Wiki Sysop
1. How did you get involved with the wiki?
  - A long, long time ago...
    I can still remember
    How the wiki used to make me smile.
    And I knew if I had my chance
    That I could make those people /dance
    And, maybe, they'd be happy for a while.
    
    But February made me shiver
    With every ooze I saw quiver.
    Bad news from a sahuagin adept;
    I couldn't take one more step.
    
    I can't remember if I cried
    When I saw the changing tide,
    But something touched me deep inside
    The day the wiki died.
    
    So bye-bye, DDOwiki guy.
    navigated my browser to the site,
    But the site wouldn't load now matter how much I did try.
    And them gruff old dwarves were drinkin' stout and ale
    Singin', "this'll be the day that I die.
    "this'll be the day that I die."
2. What is your opinion regarding why do some people (like me) mainly read and use the wiki while other people (like you) feel led to contribute and change it?
  - Hrmmm... Let me think on this one.
3. Have you participated in editing other wikis or other similar activities? If yes, how were the editing experiences different from editing DDOWiki?
  - I've participated in editing many other wikis. DDOwiki is a much calmer and less dramatic place than some of the other places I've edited.
4. What motivated you to do so much work in this specific wiki?
  - I saw a need, and felt passionate about my ability to be able fill that need to some extent. Also, since I prefer to work mainly on templates and the way the wiki works and less on the actual pages, I'm gaining valuable experience in creating logic they may benefit me in the future.
5. What rules or styles do you try to follow when adding to the wiki?
  - Our current rule and style guidelines are currently under construction as we are starting to realize that the wiki that was never suppose to last this long is strong enough to endure most any controversy for the remainder of the lifetime of DDO itself.
Part 2: General Info and History (this section is for whoever knows the answers)
1. Who founded the wiki? Borror0?
  - I'm not entirely sure...
  - The list of candidates I would guess includes Borror0 (Contribs • Message • Email), Yoko5000 (Contribs • Message • Email), Tihocan (Contribs • Message • Email), Xevo (Contribs • Message • Email), and Elliott Cable (Contribs • Message • Email)...
2. Was there one person who sort of drove things and provided a vision? Or did a bunch of people form up right away to provide crowd-sourced editorial control? Or something else?
  - I believe there was a small group at the start and it grew from there. Not certain... Yoko or Xevo would know more.
3. Who hosts the wiki? Doesn't that cost money?
  - Xevo (Contribs • Message • Email) hosts the wiki, and yes it costs money.
4. There are ads on the site. How does that work? Where does that money go?
  - The ads are what pay for the domain name registration and other hosting costs. (*cough* we pay ours DDO. :p)
5. Is the site backed up and "safe"?
  - It is! We actually had to restore the site from a backup last year due to an attack.
6. Is there a general style guideline for wiki submissions?
  - There isn't a "formal" guideline per-say (at least not that I'm aware of, and I would hope I would know). We really don't have issues with it very often.
7. It seems like the look and feel of the wiki underwent a big change a couple of years ago. Did it or am I just imagining things? If yes, why?
  - It did, and it's about to go through another!
  - That was the changing of the tide I was talking about in my little jingle above. There was a big disagreement and the wiki actually went down for a few months until Xevo (Contribs • Message • Email) decided to take over the hosting and bring it back up. However, in this process we lost our enwiki and a few other things we had set up... Took a few months for the wiki to recover from that, but I feel it is stronger now than it ever was. I saw a record number of new contributors when Update 17 was released, so many infact I had a hard time keeping up with the patrolling of pages and had to set my own projects a side and focus on making sure that all of the new editors edits had some validity and were reasonably accurate.
8. How do you as a group resolve differences? You can't all have the same philosophy about wiki work but also cannot spend eternity editing each other to comply with several competing individual philosophies. How does that work?
  - It is about the information... Personally, if the information is correct, then I tend to leave it alone even if it's not exactly the way I would have done it or the way I like to see it. In extreme cases (which rarely happen), we take it to a discussion page and the two or three people that disagree state their case (sometimes the initial stating of cases is done on our IRC chat channel and although it hasn't been utilized, I am also happy to field case points in email. Then, after some discussion and deliberation (and usually some mediation from outside parties), we try to reach some kind of agreement that works for everyone. This doesn't "always" happen, and we have lost a few editors in the past I felt were valuable.
Part 3: Questions for everyone. Please ask as many of the other sysops to answer these as possible:
1. What is your favorite piece of work you've done for the wiki, and why is it your favorite?
  - My favorite pieces of work for the wiki are some of the more complicated templates I've created.
2. How much time do you spend in the wiki versus time in the game?
  - It varies... Sometimes I spend weeks on end editing the wiki and only pop in to get mail, and other times I play daily and only pop into the wiki to check my talk page for notices.
3. Would you consider appearing on DDOCast to talk about the wiki?
  - Possibly, if I had time to prepare my answers to the questions being asked.

Answers from Yoko[edit]

Part 1[edit]

1. In 2007, nobody was using this wiki it seemed so i started using it as my "personal notepad".

2. Check this book out. Its kinda old and obsolete, the title is ridiculous (its sooo 2004 and sooo "web2.0") but it covers all the stuff going on early wiki scene and still holds so much of the truth. This wiki is no different nor special.

3. Yes. Japanese gaming wikis, guitar wikis etc.. Most of these were running on early branch version of MediaWiki called PukiWiki though. I do edit en.wikipedia and ja.wikipedia regularly as well.

4. and 5. At some point of my life, I totally went nuts with this game. Wake up, check the AH and forums then spend all the time at work figuring out builds and item layout, come back home play the game and sleep only to have a dream of playing DDO kinda thing. You know what i am talking about? I hope not lol. I dont really think about rules and styles. All my motivation is to salvage info otherwise gets buried in forum and, well this is a big thing, it is also for learning new stuff myself by putting together articles on them. Trust me, for this kind of geek stuff, there is no better way of learning than to do this. In other words, i do this because it benefits me the most.

Part 2[edit]

1. Nope its not Borror0 the French Canadian guy. It was by Elliottcable (Contribs • Message • Email) who at the time was 18-years-old-ish web geek lived in Alaska. Google his name, its amusing and he is awesome. Man, I wish I was born in his generation and in a good family like his.

2. I consider Tihocan to be "father of the wiki" in this regard. Then Me and Borror joined, things slowly built up and ... yea long story.

3 and 4. Xevo (Contribs • Message • Email) (his RL name is Ken?) hosts it, who for what I understand was Elliot's mate and "purchased" ownership of the wiki from him. It does cost money, ad is what is there for it.

5. I think so. I trust him.

6. Uh, we are still working on it. DDO wiki:Editing guideline is the one but as I stated above I care less about rules and such.

7. Wiki has changed its "look and feel" many times IMO, and its totally healthy thing. When exactly is "a couple of years ago"?

In 2006 (Mod1 - 3) - Tihocan (Contribs • Message • Email)'s look and feel was dominant on the site along with CSS skin created by EC, of which today we still utilize.
In 2007- 2008ish (Mod4 - 8) Me and Borror0 (Contribs • Message • Email) added bunch of stuff. Quest pages shaped their form. Mod 6 crafting was all community effort to figure out recipes and such so this wiki exploded in that time as well.
Then uh, around Unlimited/Mod 9, the wiki had another explosion, much bigger this time. UltraMonk (Contribs • Message • Email) and Sef326 (Contribs • Message • Email) joined and did colorful templates and table stuff. Thats what we see today in individual Item pages.
or, are you talking about overhaul on Home page look DDO Forums? The idea of it came from Ultramonk then I completed the task.

8. bleh, I dont try to resolve differences or anything. Again read the wikipedia book.

Part 3[edit]

1. Theres no such thing as my favorite work.

2. Right now I am not such a enthusiastic gamer/editor. Comes back to game every patches and updates, gets done quickly and take another break kinda player. Editing is minimal as well, just checking RSS feed and paying attention to talk page updates.

3. My English is crappy, I dont have webcam right now, lives in totally different time zone, but yea will consider it. DDOVault guys certainly will start poking at me though zomg!

Tauro's response[edit]

Part 1: Life as a DDO Wiki Sysop
Q: How did you get involved with the wiki?

Well, I looking back, saw a couple spelling errors, made an account, read up on how to edit, and went from there. Minor edits like that turned into template layouts, image uploads, etc.

Q: What is your opinion regarding why do some people (like me) mainly read and use the wiki while other people (like you) feel led to contribute and change it?

I feel people use the wiki as a reference guide to help them though difficult quests. Lets face it, some of these quests, you could be beating your head in to the wall (or standing in the lava, like at the bottom of The Pit) for hours trying to figure out the puzzles without help. I love the idea people use it and regard it so highly. I do become a little disheartened when someone complains that something is "wrong" or "ddo is not right" or "someone should fix it" - There's an 'edit' button there (*hint*hint*) - and if you mess up, it's a simple click to revert to a previous version of an article, so not like your lack of wiki-expertise is going to mess anything up.

Q: Have you participated in editing other wikis or other similar activities? If yes, how were the editing experiences different from editing DDOWiki?

Yes, I have edited a few other wikis. Some were on Wikia (which uses a really annoying software in comparison to MediaWiki that DDOwiki/Wikipedia uses), and a couple others. DDOwiki is the most developed, with a crew of active editors and admins that constantly add, update, and tweak things daily.

Q: What motivated you to do so much work in this specific wiki?

My love of DDO, and a lot of time on my hands. After seeing all the work being put in by all the admins, I inquired about joining the admin crew

Q: What rules or styles do you try to follow when adding to the wiki?

I try to follow the rules that are set forth by the guidelines (File nameing, capitalization in sentance formats - little things, really), but in my book, no edit is a bad edit so long as it can be edited again to comply with the guidelines.

Part 2: General Info and History
Q: Who founded the wiki? Borror0?

I joined well after the founding of the wiki, so I'm not really qualfied to answer - but if I had to guess, Xevo (who now hosts the site).

Q: Was there one person who sort of drove things and provided a vision? Or did a bunch of people form up right away to provide crowd-sourced editorial control? Or something else?

Again, not qualified to answer.

Q: Who hosts the wiki? Doesn't that cost money?

Xevo hosts the wiki; Yes, website hosting costs money.

Q: There are ads on the site. How does that work? Where does that money go?

Yes, The ads pay for hosting.

Q: Is the site backed up and "safe"?

To my knowledge, the site is backed up daily. We also take measures to block spammers/malicious users as quickly as possible.

Q: Is there a general style guideline for wiki submissions?

Yes and no. If there's an established page using a template - you'll see fields that you'll have to input hidden in the input text (for example: "|minlevel = 12" or an item's minimum level is 12)

Q: It seems like the look and feel of the wiki underwent a big change a couple of years ago. Did it or am I just imagining things? If yes, why?

Yes, our default skin shifted to something that was a little more stable/compatible. As softwares update, standards change. This again is also being discussed and addressed.

Q: How do you as a group resolve differences? You can't all have the same philosophy about wiki work but also cannot spend eternity editing each other to comply with several competing individual philosophies. How does that work?

"Edit wars" are ugly, nasty things, and I've seen them result in many hurt feelings. We try to avoid them as much as possible. We discuss the issues normally in a Talk page, very similar to a forum thread.

Part 3: Questions for everyone. Please ask as many of the other sysops to answer these as possible:
Q: What is your favorite piece of work you've done for the wiki, and why is it your favorite?

It's so hard to choose, I've uploaded many item pics to the wiki staring my toons or my guildmates modeling the items.

Q: How much time do you spend in the wiki versus time in the game?

There was a time when I spent almost all my game time in the wiki, and only logging in to get data for the wiki. Then the MOTU expansion came out. Basically that has flip/floped now, and me and my guild mates have been more active in game.

Q: Would you consider appearing on DDOCast to talk about the wiki?

I'm not sure how much more I can add.

"Tauro" (Contributions • Message) 13:41, April 7, 2013 (EDT)

geoff hanna thanks you all[edit]

Really nice answers everyone, thoughtful and helpful, thank you for putting so much time and effort into this.

By the way, how will I know when everyone who should answer, has answered?

Thanks again!

-- geoffhanna

Update one: First article using these answers has been published. Check it out!

Update two: Second half of the DDO Wiki interviews article is published. Read it here.

Editor's note: As the original site has now been bought by a dodgy online casino, copies of the interviews, as formatted on DDOGamer, have been made on the wiki. Archives of DDOGamer also exist on the Wayback Machine.

These articles are getting a lot of page views and positive comments. Everyone appreciates the work you guys do for the community.

Thank you for answering my questions, and thank you even more for DDO Wiki!

I think it would be fairly safe to assume that everyone that should have answered and is going to, has answered by now.

ShoeMaker (Contributions • Message) 07:42, April 24, 2013 (EDT)

Answers from Mjoll[edit]

Part1

Q: How did you get involved with the wiki?

At the time I started playing, second half of 2009, I wasn't satisfied with wiki's maps for quests and decided to make my own maps. After a while sharing them with other players sounded like a good idea so I made a thread on the official forums that I kept updating regularly. Later I was approached by either Borror or Yoko and asked if I would like to upload the maps on the wiki and... here I am.

Q: What is your opinion regarding why do some people (like me) mainly read and use the wiki while other people (like you) feel led to contribute and change it?

I don't think there is only one correct answer to this question, it's more about a multitude of factors that influence whether or not someone decides to contribute to the wiki: free time, knowledge of the game, being a hardcore or casual gamer, having 20 alts or none, wanting to fill an information gap that exists on the wiki or to correct erroneous info etc. And a healthy dose of OCD. *laughs*

Q: Have you participated in editing other wikis or other similar activities? If yes, how were the editing experiences different from editing DDOWiki?

I wrote a couple of guides for two other online games, Sacred and Saga of Ryzom, but DDOWiki is the first wiki I contribute to.

Q: What motivated you to do so much work in this specific wiki?

Helping myself and helping others, being a giver after being a taker for too long. Everyone wins when you pool together the information rather than having each person hoarding the info for themselves.

Q: What rules or styles do you try to follow when adding to the wiki?

Common sense, wiki guidelines and my vision about how the final result should look like.

Part 2
Nothing else to add here.

Part 3

Q: What is your favorite piece of work you've done for the wiki, and why is it your favorite?

I can't pick one, it's a tie between all my pet projects (quest maps, item enchantments project and monster information project) because I've invested a lot of time into all of them.

Q: How much time do you spend in the wiki versus time in the game?

I'd say 50/50 whenever a new update is released because some info I have to get myself (sometimes it can get dull fast, running the same quest for the 10th time in a row because I can't find the last random trap/chest/rare monster that I need to finish mapping the quest ain't fun), with considerably less time spent on the wiki between game updates.

Q: Would you consider appearing on DDOCast to talk about the wiki?

Err probably not, I don't use a mic or a webcam. by Mjoll (Contributions • Message) 07:09, April 10, 2013 (EDT)