DDO wiki talk:Naming policy/Archive01

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Cleared it since it was just a broken, hard to delete link.

But we should probably restart the page, as a naming policy sounds like a good thing.

Seems like the old version tihocan referred to must of said put everything lowercase.. But personally I dont think that's ideal. I think we should use uppercase in some cases to match the in-game naming - for places where it makes sense.. Like feats and skills.

Guess we have some minor stuff over on the DDO_wiki:Editing guideline page.. But should have more finite policy for this here.

Shade 00:49, March 5, 2012 (EST)

Shade File naming on Upload file page

Dont think is possible since its some type of protected system page. But I think be a nice idea to have a brief version of Shade File naming - Item pages on the Upload file page. Bladedge 18:44, March 28, 2012 (EDT)

Yea there is a fairly big issue in that players new to the wiki very frequently can't figure out how to upload files. I'm sure lots more WANT to contribute, but they get intimidated by our complex templates and wiki coding, and give up in frustration.. Other wikis have it set up a lot better: pic missing.. click the missing pic and it brings up an upload prompt that works..

Guy1: Ours.. pic missing no pic - click pic, try to upload.. overwrite nopic, peerless reverts it.. Locks page.
Guy2-99 (probably more, just another one today I responded to here: User talk:Tyrglyph.: Clicks pic, tries to upload: Erorr page is protected.. Stuck.

Plus that nopic.jpg is ugly as hell imo..

Personally I think just filling in the file names and having it show 420px redlink is more intuitive and cleaner even. Line of text - red or not is a lot less ugly then that nopic IMO. Though we could take it a step further and lock the filenames right in the templates.

Other hand maybe we can make a new nicer nopic, that doesn't link to itself, but instead links to the proper upload destination. We might need a new extension to do that, but definitely possible since other wikis do it.

What your suggesting sounds possible too (good suggestion BTW).. Most of the wiki software user-interface text is customizable, just a matter of finding the filename.

Either way, I'll try to find a solution soon.

Shade 20:06, March 28, 2012 (EDT)

An even simpler solution. File Moving. Similar to what we have with regular pages, where it moves the page to the new name, only with the file. (restrict move ability to Sysop, and don't create a redirect) Yawgmoth 01:26, March 29, 2012 (EDT)

• "Dont think is possible since its some type of protected system page. But I think be a nice idea to have a brief version of Shade File naming - Item pages on the Upload file page."
  • It is possible, but you would have to get Xevo (Contribs • Message • Email) to do it because it is a Special:Page and we do not have access to those even with full privileges...
• "Guy1: Ours.. pic missing no pic - click pic, try to upload.. overwrite nopic, peerless reverts it.. Locks page.
  Guy2-99 (probably more, just another one today I responded to here: User talk:Tyrglyph.: Clicks pic, tries to upload: Erorr page is protected.. Stuck."
  • peerless isn't here anymore..
• "Plus that nopic.jpg is ugly as hell imo.."
  • Make a better one.
• "Personally I think just filling in the file names and having it show 420px redlink is more intuitive and cleaner even. Line of text - red or not is a lot less ugly then that nopic IMO."
  • 420px redlink is ugly.. Why not set the filenames to "|picdesc = no_pic.jpg{{!}}link=<Insert what you think the filename should be here>"
    • I'll make it even easier and build you a Template:Nopic.. {{Nopic|link=...}}
• "Other hand maybe we can make a new nicer nopic, that doesn't link to itself, but instead links to the proper upload destination. We might need a new extension to do that, but definitely possible since other wikis do it."
  • See above two bullets..
• "An even simpler solution. File Moving. Similar to what we have with regular pages, where it moves the page to the new name, only with the file. (restrict move ability to Sysop, and don't create a redirect)"
  • We do not have it yet because, as some of you may remember, we used to host our files on an Enterwiki server instead of right on DDO wiki. When the files got moved over, they were a direct copy into the root files system which has been causing "Issues" to say the least. The files are here and we can access them, but the wiki doesn't know they are here, which is why we can not delete them (yeah those ones). Xevo doesn't want to allow file moving at this point until he gets the situation straightened out. In order to fix this, he will have to pull all of the files off of the server, and upload them through the wiki interface. He does not have the time for this right now with his other programing project he is working on right now. Perhaps by the end of the summer when we upgrade to MW1.19 (planned).. ShoeMaker (Contributions • Message) 05:25, March 29, 2012 (EDT)

Update:

• "Dont think is possible since its some type of protected system page. But I think be a nice idea to have a brief version of Shade File naming - Item pages on the Upload file page."
  • It is possible, but you would have to get Xevo (Contribs • Message • Email) to do it because it is a Special:Page and we do not have access to those even with full privileges...
    • Done, after some searching and much editing of the user interface, i found a fair spot for a link to the naming policy on the upload page.
• "Personally I think just filling in the file names and having it show 420px redlink is more intuitive and cleaner even. Line of text - red or not is a lot less ugly then that nopic IMO."
  • 420px redlink is ugly.. Why not set the filenames to "|picdesc = no_pic.jpg{{!}}link=<Insert what you think the filename should be here>"
    • I'll make it even easier and build you a Template:Nopic.. {{Nopic|link=...}}
      • Template:Nopic has been created and the easiest way for you to use it is to simply put in {{Nopic|{{subst:PAGENAME}}.png}} in the spot where you want to show up with a link to the filename you want. (.jpg may be substituted by .png if it is more fitting).
• "An even simpler solution. File Moving. Similar to what we have with regular pages, where it moves the page to the new name, only with the file. (restrict move ability to Sysop, and don't create a redirect)"
  • We do not have it yet because, as some of you may remember, we used to host our files on an Enterwiki server instead of right on DDO wiki. When the files got moved over, they were a direct copy into the root files system which has been causing "Issues" to say the least. The files are here and we can access them, but the wiki doesn't know they are here, which is why we can not delete them (yeah those ones). Xevo doesn't want to allow file moving at this point until he gets the situation straightened out. In order to fix this, he will have to pull all of the files off of the server, and upload them through the wiki interface. He does not have the time for this right now with his other programing project he is working on right now. Perhaps by the end of the summer when we upgrade to MW1.19 (planned)..
    • I've sent an email to Xevo (Contribs • Message • Email) explaining to him the process that sysops can use to remove these files and requested that he allowed file moving and a few other things.. Simply awaiting a response. ShoeMaker (Contributions • Message) 14:15, April 9, 2012 (EDT)

Project: Switch to Title Case? Requesting comments from administrators/regular editors

When I created this naming policy, while some of it was my own ideas, primarily I went primarily for minimal site disruption. IE:

• Followed current standards (Most stuff that existed in game, followed in game naming, other stuff generally didn't, whatever didn't match was minimal work to fix)
• Tried to match some of the previous standards from the lost naming policy (Yea we had one before, was lost in the enterwiki deletion).

And while that is all fine and good, I'm not sure it's the best practice/policy for our wiki.

I think changing over to Title Case (Wikipedia link on what that is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_case#Usage) might be the best for our wiki.

More Specifically - we pretty much follow Turbines naming policy - they generally use title case for everything. (Examples: All feats, items, spells, skills, quest names, etc.. pretty much everything - capitalizes all titles of everything except certain words.. EG:

• except for articles, prepositions, conjunctions, and forms of to be ..
  • In other words.. Stuff like of, or, the, it, etc are not capitalized, everything else in titles are. (Stuff outside of page/file naming titles doesn't change)

Good reasons for it:

• It's what the game uses. It's what turbine uses in general - pretty much all it's games follow this naming convention.
• It's what wikis that are in a bit better shape then ours use. Especially ones for other turbine games: EG: Asheron's Call and Lord of the Rings wikis both use title case.
• It will result in less confusion, especially for articles which we essentially choose the name (thus only capitalize the first letter) but are essentially also used by other things in the game, eg:
  • Bonus types, such as Natural armor bonus - this is lower case .. Yet in game all references use Natural Armor Bonus.. Especially the +1 to +5 enchantment line, which per our policy, should match.. So we end up with redirects in upper case to a lower case title, confusing.

Reasons against:

• It will be a lot of work to get the wiki converted over: Most regular pages, like the bonus types, wont take long.. Simple moves and some checking for double redirects, not a big deal.. Items/spells/feats/skills/etc.. well they are already titlecase. What isn't: Categories (well most of them).. That will take some time, and result in some site disruption (as well end up with pages half and half at some points, mostly unavoidable)..
• It would probably take ~1-3 weeks for the item category, given how big it is.. I mean I've recently completed fixing it to remove the unnecessary prefixes, and it was a fair bit of work ,but nothing too bad. Took me maybe 3 weeks of fairly casual editing.. With multiple editors working on it, it won't take nearly as long. The main bulk of the work will just be converting _loot pages to _Loot. As much of it is handled through templates anyways.

But yea if at least a couple other administrators agree, and want to volunteer to help get this done.. I think we should probably go for it.

What do you guys think?→ Shade (Contributions • Message) 11:44, April 23, 2012 (EDT)

I'm for it.

I've tried to use the in-game case when I get the opportunity to create a page, however if a page is already created, moving the page to the proper-cased name, causing the redirect, seemed unnecessary at the time. I feared it might make the wiki a bit messier if there were a lot more mis-cased redirects out there, but I suppose that's minor in the bigger picture.

I suppose the process seems straight forward:

1. Find a mis-cased page
2. Use Special:WhatLinksHere
3. Move mis-cased page
4. Start fixing the 'What links here' list

Question remains, how do we find all the mis-cased articles?→ Taurolyon (Contributions • Message) 14:45, April 23, 2012 (EDT)

View the list of all articles, then find the ones that are miscased... Yawgmoth (Contributions • Message) 16:06, April 23, 2012 (EDT)

Well, that method seems kinda... EEP! lol But yeah, I'm definitely for Shade's idea, having things more standardized = looks better. LrdSlvrhnd (Contributions • Message) 16:09, April 23, 2012 (EDT)

I'm Opposed. My original post seems to have not saved this morning.. Basically, The current naming convention is the better of the two. Changing "The Harbor Loot" implies there is an item named "The Harbor Loot" where-as "The Harbor loot" very clearly specifies the stuff on the page is loot from The Harbor.

Your titlecase suggestion also would require piped links for anything that isn't named, or all kinds of improper English cases in sentences in order to make the links work because a link to In Development doesn't go to the same place as in development. I think this is a very bad idea. ShoeMaker (Contributions • Message) 16:29, April 23, 2012 (EDT)

I'm for it. 150%. It is going to create a bunch of work, but once all is said and done, the appearance of the page titles will be much more of that of a professional wiki (i.e. Wikipedia). Ague (Contributions • Message) 19:08, April 23, 2012 (EDT)

For the record, this is NOT the naming convention that wikipedia uses.. See The featured article for 19:25, April 23, 2012 (EDT) with links to Wage reform in the Soviet Union, 1956–1962 (reform is not capitalized), Soviet working class, Piece work, and Capital good. ShoeMaker (Contributions • Message) 19:25, April 23, 2012 (EDT)

*flips a coin* Against, apparently.... I prefer not having a thousand redirects to click thru just to get to one page Yawgmoth (Contributions • Message) 19:50, April 23, 2012 (EDT)

against. agree with what shoe said.→ yoko5000 (Contributions • Message) 23:26, April 23, 2012 (EDT)

Tech does have a point, perhaps another solution to certain situations, like his "The Harbor loot" example into something like "The Harbor (Loot)". This would suggest the article is in reference to loot from the harbor.

Perhaps we could just move something like this example: "The Harbor/Loot" to specify a clear sub-article under "The Harbor" article.→ Taurolyon (Contributions • Message) 23:30, April 23, 2012 (EDT) Another vote against mass title casing.

Ah the joy of title casing, almost as fun as running into that one out of 100,000 mmo players that insists on capitalizing Every Single Word They Write In Party Chat Because They Are Edgy And Unconventional Forcing You To Squelch Them So You Don't Burst A Vein.

Sure, title case - due to its very simple rules - is the easy button and would get rid of 99.99% of the page naming confusion but I never liked it, I find it immature and irritating (example: the links at the bottom of How I Build My Toons). In my native language we have sentence casing but no title casing and we do very well without the later.

A quote from the same page Shade linked ([1]):
The convention followed by many British publishers (including scientific publishers, like Nature, magazines, like The Economist and New Scientist, and newspapers, like The Guardian and The Times) is to use sentence-style capitalization in titles and headlines, where capitalization follows the same rules that apply for sentences. This convention is sometimes called sentence case. It is also widely used in the United States, especially in newspaper publishing, bibliographic references and library catalogues. Examples of global publishers whose English-language house styles prescribe sentence-case titles and headings include the International Organization for Standardization.

Examples:
US Newspapers on the Internet; Online Editions Out of the top 20 newspapers 18 use sentence case.
British Newspapers: UK national and local newspapers online Out of the 39 newspapers 35 use sentence case.

P.S. I'm guilty of using title case on the wiki but this discussion made me more aware of it so I'll seek treatment heh. → by Mjoll (Contributions • Message) 04:05, April 24, 2012 (EDT) Against: I think having the wiki use naming that differs from the in-game naming is good and highlights what is an in-game object/name vs. what is not. Plus, lots of work for very little gain in my opinion.
I could get behind Taurolyon's "The Harbor/Loot" idea maybe. Backley (Contributions • Message) 11:52, April 24, 2012 (EDT)

Well looks like we need more input to come to a consensus (4 for, 4 against - not counting the guy who just made a random decision).

But have to point out some invalid points:

• redirects .. This project has ZERO to do with redirects. Trying to use that as some deterrent is utterly illogical. And just seems like you guys sound like a broken record, as you tried to use it as some kinda excuse against my other recent idea too, where again it made no sense. If anything, it will result in slightly less redirects due to the one example i mentioned - enchantments names (which are title case now) redirecting to bonus name pages (lower case) - a few (base name ones) wont anymore. Though I don't consider that a plus or a minus. A simple redirect is NOT a bad thing, you guys seem to act like it is. It's something thats entirely invisible to the average user and should not influence our decision in this very much unrelated topic. The only related thing is that yea, moving pages will cause some additional maintenance to be needed afterwards, tho rarely anything that takes more then 5 minutes of work, then its done forever.

• Wikipedia or the newspaper don't use it. How is that relevant? Most gaming wikis do, they, and the DDO wiki are very different from Wikipedia. Here is the explanation for the difference from ACCWiki:
• Note: Wikipedia and many other wikis use lower case or first letter upper case (e.g., "Naming conventions" or "naming conventions") in naming articles, templates, images, etc. However due to the specialized nature of ACC Wiki wherein it holds only content related to Asheron's Call, title case is the default for naming because that is what is used in game.

Same applies here.. Yea it's something that makes sense for an overall encyclopedia. But that's not what DDO wiki is. It's something that covers one specialized topic, and that one specialized topic - the game, uses title case. So while Wikipedia might end up with ~50% or less pages with title case, we end up with 90%, with the other 10% looking out of place.

• Techs point: Valid, but I don't think the average reader is that dumb. MMO players understand what the term "Loot" means. So it appearing at the end of a title isn't particularly confusing imo. And Taurolyon's proposed solution addresses it just fine. It's also a category-only issue, which could be a special case.

• Backley, yea I get what you're saying.. But to me it seems like there are a ton more conflicts where the subject does exist in game, (One i pointed out - Natural Armor Bonus - and all other bonus pages really) then when there isn't. Pretty much as the wiki is now, ~90% of pages are title case - as obviously most of what we cover exists directly in the game with some standard naming already. While ~10% of categories are (and about half are those are because there named wrong). Pretty much its just causing our categories to be incongruous with our non-categories, not seeing the benefit there.

• re: Mjol, yea i don't get you.. You undoudedly put hundreds of hours into your massive projects (great job btw) and pretty much always use title case.. eg: Monster Information - violates your position/current naming policy, should be Monster information. Same goes for your new proecjtL Item Enchantments - should be Item enchantments. Why the sudden change of heart?

• Another relevant example: Enhancement Bonuses. These exist on some thousand plus pages, all with upper case. Yet you click the link, and you end up with at a lower case version of it - did the user want a concise explanation of Enhancement Bonuses (Plus Type) or did they want the generic page about the more complex topic of enhancement bonuses in general?. Enchantments per the policy are meant to have their own, capitalization-matched title pages, yet this is some exception? Sure there's arguments for both, but its not clear why either is correct, and would be more unified, streamlined and easier with title case.

Anyways yea we'll need more input or for people to change their minds to come to a consensus. Given it's a large project it's important the majority agree, and at least a cpl are willing to help get it done.

Shade (Contributions • Message) 14:56, April 24, 2012 (EDT)

That is not my primary concern.. My primary concern comes from the horrible results that would occur because "check out our quests by adventure pack page." does not go to the same place as "check out our Quests by Adventure Pack page." This would force the editor to have to pipe the correct link to the proper English on the page → "check out our [[Quests by Adventure Pack|quests by adventure pack]] page.", they would end up with bad grammar and improper case in a sentence on the page → "check out our Quests by Adventure Pack page.", or even worse they would end up with a redlink → "check out our quests by adventure pack page." ShoeMaker (Contributions • Message) 15:30, April 24, 2012 (EDT)

• It's not a change of heart, I was indifferent to the naming policy when sentence case and title case were coexisting on the wiki. So I wasn't giving it much thought and went with the flow - even if I didn't liked it - until this topic appeared. And I came forward after your proposal to move to 100% title case and eliminate sentence case completely.

• Sentence case and title case can continue to coexist on the wiki. Use title case for everything (I have my reservations here but for the sake of the discussion I'll go with 'everything') that is taken from the game and that uses title case. Use sentence case for things that are not directly taken from the game (builds, crafting guides, etc).
  • For the Natural Armor Bonus example... Treat words that are often paired together like proper nouns on page names and when linking to them but don't enforce this rule otherwise. So Natural Armmor Bonus becomes Natural Armor bonus (natural + armor mean something when paired together, bonus is more a 'satellite' word that can be connected to many words).
    • Page name: Natural Armor bonus
    • Link: The Natural Armor bonus can be found on...
    • Plain text: The natural armor bonus can be found on...
  • Of course this needs a more in-depth discussion, one example is not enough.

• The 'in your face!' approach, singling out 2 pages I created and renaming them (changing one letter for each because apparently I can't imagine how the change from uppercase to lowercase letters looks like), along with the insinuating comments attached to the edits are supposed to mean something? Maybe it's just a coincidence that you picked those 2 pages and you plan on renaming other dozens or hundreds of pages in the next hours in the name of the naming policy, right? And maybe you would have renamed those pages today anyway even if I would have supported your proposal, right?

• I'm giving it another try, you keep spelling my name wrong:
  • the name Mjol is 4 letters long → User:Mjol doesn't exist on the wiki
  • the name Mjoll, the one that I'm using, is 5 letters long (M J O L L) → User:Mjoll exists on the wiki by Mjoll (Contributions • Message) 17:45, April 24, 2012 (EDT)

RE: Mjoll - two ll's. It's a simple typo, it's a very unusual spelling so yea when I type quick i might leave out it - i type it as a would pronouce it. I'm Sorry it upsets you, that certainly was not my intention.

Re: In your face approach. Not really my intention either. More so I was just confused on your position. Just showing that the major pages you've worked on you've always set to title case. The reason I picked those 2 pages are because they are obviously the ones your spent the most time on recently, they are pretty huge and complex projects. Hardly coincidence.

Far as my plans go.. I plan on working together as a cohesive wiki and doing exactly what the majority wants us to do. If that's to remain as is, so be it. I'm for co-operationg and coming to a consensus when it comes to large site changes, not springing massive site changes upon people suddenly as other have done recently.

Shade (Contributions • Message) 22:36, April 24, 2012 (EDT)

Hey, I count, so it's 5 against! Shade, you seem to forget that every time a page is moved, it makes redirect. Ive got my browser set to disable redirect until i click to proceed. I only tossed the coin because I wanted to get this over with, so we can get to the other elephant in the room, Item: namespace. @Mjoll: don't worry about it, we've come to expect Shades typos Yawgmoth (Contributions • Message) 19:02, April 24, 2012 (EDT)

You said you flipped a coin to make your decision. Not at all a fair way to decide wiki policy, and thus why your votes not important. Provide any valid reason why your voting one way or another and I would consider your vote just the same as anyone elses.

re: I have my browser set to disable redirects - very strange, but again redirects have ZERO bearing on the project. No more or no less will be created if it's done correctly. Yes redirects will be created in the process - but that is something that requires only some simple maintenance to correct, and will not impact the site at all for anyone, not even you.

Additionally and while this is offtopic - your browser settings would have zero effect on the matter. The wiki never actaully redirects users to other urls. It transcludes the intended page into the current url, thus your browser settings are irrelevant, redirects pages will work fine for you as your browser will never know the difference.

Shade (Contributions • Message) 22:36, April 24, 2012 (EDT)

Kobold starting to dislike you. Not kobold fault, there was SHINY!!!! For the record, kobold think this bad idea too.. Not in the face! NOT IN THE FACE! AHHHHH!!!!! Kobold worker (Contributions • Message) 20:48, April 24, 2012 (EDT)

Mjoll (Contribs • Message • Email)... LOL he does it to you all the time.. I think it is just to annoy you. If I were you, I would put:

/* Fix for Shade's misspelling of Mjoll */
$('a[title^="User:Mjol"]').each(function() {
    this.innerHTML = this.innerHTML.replace("User:Mjoll", "User:Mjol");
    this.innerHTML = this.innerHTML.replace("User:Mjol", "User:Mjoll");
    this.title = this.title.replace("User:Mjol (page does not exist)", "User:Mjoll");
    this.href = this.href.replace("/edit/User:Mjol?redlink=1", "/page/User:Mjoll");
})

on your User:Mjoll/common.js page (based on the "Item: namespace strip by Ague (Contribs • Message • Email)") and never notice again! ShoeMaker (Contributions • Message) 20:34, April 24, 2012 (EDT)

Taking serious what is posted from an alt account that is known to be an alt account and only has 6 edits under its belt and talking about demotion, this place is starting to look uglier and uglier by the day. The wiki is a hobby for me, I don't get payed for what I do, I'm not getting back the hundreds of hours I spent researching stuff for the wiki but it's all fine as long as I enjoy what I'm doing. And all of this probably applies to everyone posting here. Hell, considering I never TRed yet, if i would have spent the same amount of time in game I would have been at least half way to completionist.

I do defend my projects but I'm pretty easygoing most of the time, I prefer to avoid starting dozens of mini edit wars whenever minutes after I make an edit someone else edits my edit according to their own perspective on the matter, even though both edits are equally valid. So I let things slide, live and let live. But... Rules are good but when they become too restrictive and the hobby turns into army training with regulations and directives and drill sergeants yelling and pointing at you for every single mistake, be it true or imaginary, then you have people snapping back.

Anyway I propose an alternative.

I can think of several roots of this problem regarding title case vs. sentence case:
1. Nobody in their right mind uses uppercase letters for the first letter of every 4th or 5th word when writing a letter, a journal, a book etc. Nobody.
2. Turbine uses title case everywhere, even on their release notes.
3. The wiki immitates Turbine.
4. All wikis are case sensitive for all letters except the first one when it comes to linking.

• take Rakshasa Hide for example... changing the case for any letter other than the first one leads to red links:
  • rakshasa Hide
  • Rakshasa hide
  • RAkshasa Hide
  • RAKSHASA HIDE

So, based on that, my proposal is to ignore Turbine's usage of title case and go with sentence case, using uppercase letters only for the the first word and for proper nouns for all page names. The sense and meaning of the text remains the same but we avoid using an insane amount of uppercase letters in the middle of a phrase (the bigger the page, the more flagrant this becomes) and we stay closer to how writing presents itself in real life. The downside: wasting time on re-linking to the new pages and creating redirects and I hate redirects just as much as the next guy.

Here's a comparison using a few paragraphs taken from Arcane spell failure.

My proposal, closer to what normal writing looks like
Any scroll with a spell on the sorcerer/wizard's list will be susceptible to "arcane" spell failure even if the reader is an artificer, bard wearing light armor, or divine caster. (Thus, clerics cannot reliably use Protection from energy scrolls in their heavy armor). This behavior may be modified in the future, as developers have acknowledged it should not work this way.

Similar to divine spells, artificer-exclusive spells are arcane-type spells but are not subject to arcane spell failure. Artificers using sorcerer/wizard's list scrolls via UMD are subject to arcane spell failure. So, anyone using a Lightning motes scroll suffer no arcane spell failure, but an artificer is susceptible to arcane spell failure when using a scroll of Fire shield (not artificer at all) or Reconstruct (available to artificer but not artificer-exclusive).

Due to this same bug, bards wearing light armor using scrolls on the sorcerer/wizard's list will be susceptible to arcane spell failure, even if the spell exists on the bard spell list as well. So, a bard wearing light armor has no chance of ASF when casting Greater heroism as a spell, but is susceptible to arcane spell failure when casting it from a scroll.

How it looks now
Any scroll with a spell on the Sorcerer/Wizard's list will be susceptible to "Arcane" Spell Failure even if the reader is an Artificer, Bard wearing light armor, or divine caster. (Thus, Clerics cannot reliably use Protection from Energy scrolls in their heavy armor). This behavior may be modified in the future, as developers have acknowledged it should not work this way.

Similar to divine spells, Artificer-exclusive spells are Arcane-type spells but are not subject to Arcane Spell Failure. Artificers using Sorcerer/Wizard's list scrolls via UMD are subject to Arcane Spell Failure. So, anyone using a Lightning Motes scroll suffer no Arcane Spell Failure, but an Artificer is susceptible to Arcane Spell Failure when using a scroll of Fire Shield (not Artificer at all) or Reconstruct (available to Artificer but not Artificer-exclusive).

Due to this same bug, Bards wearing light armor using scrolls on the Sorcerer/Wizard's list will be susceptible to Arcane Spell Failure, even if the spell exists on the Bard spell list as well. So, a Bard wearing light armor has no chance of ASF when casting Greater Heroism as a spell, but is susceptible to Arcane Spell Failure when casting it from a scroll.

How it looks now with emphasis on unnecessary uppercase letters
Any scroll with a spell on the Sorcerer/Wizard's list will be susceptible to "Arcane" Spell Failure even if the reader is an Artificer, Bard wearing light armor, or divine caster. (Thus, Clerics cannot reliably use Protection from Energy scrolls in their heavy armor). This behavior may be modified in the future, as developers have acknowledged it should not work this way.

Similar to divine spells, Artificer-exclusive spells are Arcane-type spells but are not subject to Arcane Spell Failure. Artificers using Sorcerer/Wizard's list scrolls via UMD are subject to Arcane Spell Failure. So, anyone using a Lightning Motes scroll suffer no Arcane Spell Failure, but an Artificer is susceptible to Arcane Spell Failure when using a scroll of Fire Shield (not Artificer at all) or Reconstruct (available to Artificer but not Artificer-exclusive).

Due to this same bug, Bards wearing light armor using scrolls on the Sorcerer/Wizard's list will be susceptible to Arcane Spell Failure, even if the spell exists on the Bard spell list as well. So, a Bard wearing light armor has no chance of ASF when casting Greater Heroism as a spell, but is susceptible to Arcane Spell Failure when casting it from a scroll.

So you have 196 words and 42 unnecessary uppercase letters, the words to unnecessary uppercase letters ratio being 4.66:1.

And a few page name examples:

Now
Example of using Shard of Supreme Power in a phrase.

Proposal
Example of using Shard of supreme power in a phrase.
Example of using shard of supreme power in a phrase.

Now
Example of using Wail of the Banshee in a phrase.
Example of using wail of the Banshee in a phrase.

Proposal
Example of using Wail of the banshee in a phrase.
Example of using wail of the banshee in a phrase.

Now
Example of using Natural Armor Bonus in a phrase.

Proposal
Example of using Natural armor bonus in a phrase.
Example of using natural armor bonus in a phrase.

Now
Example of using Shining Crest of St. Markus in a phrase.

Proposal
Example of using Shining crest of St. Markus in a phrase.

Now
Example of using Otto's Sphere of Dancing in a phrase.

Proposal
Example of using Otto's sphere of dancing in a phrase.

Now
Example of using Barbarian Power Rage in a phrase.
Example of using barbarian Power Rage in a phrase.

Proposal
Example of using Barbarian power rage in a phrase.
Example of using barbarian power rage in a phrase.
by Mjoll (Contributions • Message) 07:13, April 25, 2012 (EDT)

Technical 13 impersonating multiple users, posting insults and trying to use alt accounts as additional votes

Technical13 AKA Kobold worker.. Impersonating and pretending to be multiple users at once to further your cause/insult others is a severe violation of wikiquette. Especially when your using said other usename to support your own position, insult and make false assertions against another user. I absolutely have no desires to "annoy" anyone, and mispelling of the name Mjoll was just that - a simple mispelling for which I've apologized..

Lately your continous violation of policies and wikiquette is getting a bit extreme. You say you are against personal attacks in your userpage, yet here you are, falsifying userlogs to hide your creation of your alt account, which you used directly personally insulting me. Really not cool.

I consider this grounds for demotion of Technical_13 as a sysop. Trying to get two votes on an important matter by impersonating another person is incredibly rude and disrespectful of everyone involved. Very unbecoming of an administrator. That on top of his other recent very questionable activities seems more then enough for such grounds. Shade (Contributions • Message) 22:36, April 24, 2012 (EDT)

Where-as Kobold worker (Contribs • Message • Email) is not an administrator in any qualification, this does not qualify as an additional vote or impersonating anything.

A simple misspelling of someones name happens once, not on multiple occasions... You, good sir, have done it repeatedly lately. You as of late have been making policies, and most of it was simply not voted upon by anyone else. You're living under the false assumption that everyone that comes here, has played DDO or at very least PnP and knows something about something.. This is simply not true in MOST cases.. While there may be a few players that come here for twink references of this or that, I would say that a good majority know little about what they are here to look-up or research..
This is a wiki for a game, not Encyclopedia Britannica. There are things that need to be dumbed down a little.
Personal attacks and failure to maintain a certain level of professionalism regarding the use of proper English are grounds for demotion.. Your example of an insult to Mjoll (Contribs • Message • Email) by calling him Mjol after he was VERY clearly upset by this in the previous instance is considered a personal attack in my opinion.
Your repeated flat out refusal to check your spellings, grammar, and punctuation on discussion pages is a blatant disregard for Spelling and respect to the three other administrators that have been going around all of the content pages cleaning up after you. Not to mention, commons sense says that everyone should strive to make any post they make to be professional and top-of-the-line.
I'm not going to petition for a demotion of you based on any reasons at this point, although I have many.. I am very much not impressed with your actions as of late. You have caused one disruption after another..
Time for me to cool off.. You have made me fairly .
I respect the fact that we are two different style people.. Your are a Melee type, and I am a Caster type, and perhaps this is evident in our conflict. However, Shade, I seem to think at this point, the majority of the conflict seems to be between you and I. So, let's discuss things, as I had already started to do on your talk page. ShoeMaker (Contributions • Message) 00:03, April 25, 2012 (EDT)

Claiming a simple typo is a personal attack is absolutely ludicrous. Yea sure I've repeated typos. Generally people do repeat the same typos when they dont realise they are making them. It's a simple human nature. If you believe what your doing is the correct way, why would you suddenly try to change it.

You're further insulting me by claiming my spelling is bad in general. I don't believe that's at all fair. My spelling on article pages is IMO quite good - I do spellcheck and type very carefully on every article I edit. And yea maybe i do make a few extra typos on talk pages.. But so what? Even if it was bad, it's not a fair reason to insult me.

Proper wikiquette encourages positive reinforcement. EG: Help me improve my spelling, not insult me over it. In fact even editing spelling and grammar mistakes on talk pages is a violation of wikiquette. It certainly doesn't require users to have 100% perfect spelling. It encourages users to communicate in a positive manner, regardless of their own ability to type in the english language. If you understand another users meaning, that should be all that matters.

The whole idea and purpose of wikiquette it is entirely contrary to that. Wiki's encourage everyone to contribute, even those who are not the best at english. You are discouraging me from contributing in a very offensive way, and very much going against the nature and purpose of wikis.

If you drive users away because of minor spell errors (and imo mine are very often minor, most fixes to what I've done are very small), you don't create a very nice of positive environment for new editors to try and add information. You scare them away because they will feel they will get insulted for spelling mistakes if they aren't perfect at english spelling.

I've made many thousands of edits, and yea I've seen other users followup and fix some typos - a few times. Considering the volume of edits and how often i've seen follow up typo fixes, i dont see the cause for concern at all. But that's not because I don't check or dont't care, it's because well I made a typo. I'm human, I make mistakes. For you to insult me in this manner because of them is simply not fair.

You're linked manual of style is all fine and good.. But it's wikipedias manual of style, it doesn't apply here - it makes it very clear that its only for the english version of wikipedia articles on the english wikipedia itself. And it definitely doesn't apply to casual talk posts. We have no manual of style. We do have a Wikiquette page - which is exactly about talk pages, which is mostly a copy and paste of wikpedias, so we follow that. Should we follow it's manual of style? Thats another topic entirely. It also has nothing insulting users because their spelling isn't up to your own personal standards.

RE: Policies being relative new. Thats an excuse to violate them? I waited over 20 days after posting the discussion about the naming policy before creating it. For the deletion policy, I purposely said they had a 2 week "first dwarf" period at which point any admin could edit them at will if they disagreed. I pointed several administrators to them several times within those 2 weeks. The 2 weeks lapsed and they didnt change, you continued to violate them. The was tons of time to change them, and they can still be changed today.

And like I said, i created the naming policy primarily to copy current conventions, not to enforce new ones. Really the main reason i considered it at first was from seeing a large number of pages by Tihocan years back, referencing this non-existant naming policy. So it's actaully not even new, it was just the original was lost in the enterwiki shutdown.

To me it just seems like your trying to think of anything negative you can about me, as if that would somehow support what you've done.

Anyways, imo this is just further reason to demote you. A second personal attack: Insulting a user about their overall spelling is not at all acceptable behavior of an administrator. Specifically - implying I lack "Common Sense". I'm not even going to respond to that.→ Shade (Contributions • Message) 00:39, April 25, 2012 (EDT)

Kobold must clarify... Kobold no vote on topic. Kobold's statement was reply to " DDO wiki talk:Naming policy‎; 23:02 . . (+534) . . Yawgmoth (Talk | contributions) (My last response. Blame the Kobold for mistakes) [4]" Kobold think very bad idea blame Kobold for mistakes.. Kobold could care less about your policy. Kobold hope confusion clarified. Kobold worker (Contributions • Message) 00:44, April 25, 2012 (EDT)

You are an administrator Shade.. This comes with an expectation of professionalism on all pages, including talk pages... Sure, no one is 100% perfect, I do not claim to be, nor would I expect anyone else to be. You are going to make "a mistake" on spelling or grammar or punctuation once in a while.. However, every single post, is unacceptable. I know that if someone had a big fit over a mistake in the way I spelled their name, I would not duplicate the EXACT same mistake a few days later... I would make a point, if nothing else, do NOT duplicate that mistake.. You on the other-hand, just do not seem to care to me.
Like you said, "i created the naming policy".. This is not how things should be run.. Then, you continue to explain, "Really the main reason i considered it at first was from seeing a large number of pages by Tihocan years back"... "years back" being the key words there to me.. Really.. Tihocan (Contribs • Message • Email) Hasn't made an edit in a year.. It's time to let it go.. You also claim, "to copy current conventions, not to enforce new ones" which is quite contrary to what you have been doing in my opinion.
In some cases, you have made valid points. An example being outdated templates.. Someone may link to an "old revision" of an item.. However, the answer is not to leave the broken templates that were replaced with new templates for a reason.. The more appropriate solution, is to go through and transclude anything that may use the old template to the new template as best as is possible.. Sure, many parameters may be missing, and, although I've never seen it, there may be an argument that has no appropriate place to transclude it through to. So, you may have to create something, someplace to handle this... If you can not handle this, you could always post a request on one of our advanced template creation guys.. Neouni (Contribs • Message • Email), Sef326 (Contribs • Message • Email), Yoko5000 (Contribs • Message • Email) (I believe has dabbled a little and understands the basics of template making), or ShoeMaker (Contribs • Message • Email). ShoeMaker (Contributions • Message) 01:03, April 25, 2012 (EDT)

First Point: In the 3 years, (well, 2 years, 362 days... happy early anniversary for your first edit!) that you've been here Shade, You've made over 9000!!!! edits. I know... pointless joke, but that's exactly what the Kobold Worker is, a Joke. Or future Mascot. Tech13 originally made him in response to my "About Me" section, which you can read, and was posted using my iPhone, which wants to auto-correct a majority of things I type, which makes it read like a Kobold (Hence the blaming).
Second Point: if you want to get technical, I was the one who started the current User Guidelines for this site... 2 months, and 29 days ago. Which almost everybody here has regularly violated a few amendments... but that's not what this is about.
Third Point: In the 2 years 6 months that Tech has been here, he has done 10,000+ edits. While most of these were debug edits, hes also responsible for ~50% of the templates we regularly use. 

Now, don't take points 1 or 3 personally. This isn't me saying "Who is the better editor here", as that honor goes to Yoko (One more month till your 5 year anniversary)>.>
Personally, I'm one to speak my mind, without any regards to the person, or the consequences (I was arrested for slapping a cop during Occupy San Diego... in self defense... twice) . I've yelled at Tech13 for filling the recent edits with a hundred minor tweaks, broken pages/templates (Which one time wasn't his fault, it was Xevo's upgrade) and not using the Show Preview function. He's since kept his destruction to a minimum, and uses bot mode to fix things en mass (I think it was Neouni's 2 hour block that fixed him... or the implant). Tech13 raises a good point about your spelling in one major regard, Mjoll. Every time you misspell his name, your calling him Mjol/Mjöl, which is an Icelandic word for Flour. Which could be taken as an insult, (depending on the person) because I'm thinking his name originated from Mjöllnir, Thors magical hammer. Ground grains, Mythological Hammer of the Gods... I know what I'd rather be referred to. But that is a topic for another day. If Tech13 ever had a problem with me calling him, well, what I call him, I'd stop and call him Shoemaker or Technical_13. If I called you anything but Shade, it would read racists, because not many things come to mind right now -.- Lets get off the topic of names and back to the point.
Uh, Fourth Point: And this is in regards to the Item: namespace accusation. I don't blindly agree with anybody. If I were an easily offended person, I'd consider that a 3rd personal attack on somebody (Mjoll and Tech13), but I'm too tired, and its my day off tomorrow.
My first post on that page, well, aside from offering take the project and start, (which I stopped after people voiced their questions about it) was about a Gecko (the Caveman comment). My second, and only ACTUAL opinion on the matter, was
There's also a reason we can patrol edits, even if they don't know our templates or royally mess the page up (by our standards), we can fix it. But, the only thing complicating about this issue, would be this talk... If Tech13 wants to make things simpler for the average Joe, let him. As for the Item: namespace issue (which this originally started as) currently searching for a named item brings up dozens and dozens of results. Item:XXXX would simplify that, and bring you to the item faster. If we want to later, we can shift to Quest:XXXX, but that is a different story. To Review: Both Shade and Tech13 are starting to act like trolls. But by reading all the arguments, Shade seems to be provoking the fires, while Tech13 is adding more fuel...→ Yawgmoth (Contributions • Message) 05:05, April 25, 2012 (EDT)

Violations of Policies

Shade wants to talk about violations of the Naming and Deletion policies and how I am the number one offender.. I am sticking up for the Naming policy and may have had a few typo's when Shade wants to change it to all capitals.. I have figured out why he wants to do such a ridiculous thing, there are 84 uploads that Shade has made that are direct violations of "HIS" Naming policy... Specifically, "Unlike most other page names, Categories use standard English capitalization rules. Thus only proper names are capitalized as in-game, not much else." I'm tired of him accusing me of thinking I am above the rules when HE is the real number one offender and seems to think that since "HE" wrote the policy, he is above it.. A complete list of all 84 files can be found on Category:Flagged for instant deletion with a note saying that correctly named versions need to be uploaded before the violations can be removed. I also just restored seven direct violations of the Deletion policy by Shade. So, if you want to start pointing fingers, point at yourself first. Re-deletion of those seven pages without following proper procedure will be considered grounds for immediate demotion from System Administrator as deemed necessary by a steward, only to be over-ridden by a review. Consider this your written warning on the matter. ShoeMaker (Contributions • Message) 02:24, April 25, 2012 (EDT)

Item: Name Space

Where is the discussion being held on this wide-ranging change? I see massive edits, but I can't find a discussion about it (and I want to understand the reasons for this huge change). I'll hold off discussing my views until I see where to post them. → Backley (Contributions • Message) 04:33, April 25, 2012 (EDT)

I believe Talk:Item_Namespace is what you're looking for.

LrdSlvrhnd (Contributions • Message) 04:35, April 25, 2012 (EDT)